On this week's episode of Safe Money Radio, host Brett A. Blake sits down with Joseph Jordan, a behavioral finance expert and author of Living a Life of Significance, to talk about planning for a longer retirement. Jordan's answer is direct: plan for more years than the averages suggest, and plan for what you will do with them. A retirement that gets only a money plan may leave out the part that makes the years worth living.

Jordan ran insurance sales at Paine Webber, served as a senior vice president at MetLife, and was a founder of the Insured Retirement Institute. In 2023 he received the John Newton Russell Memorial Award, which the industry association NAIFA describes as the highest honor the insurance industry gives a living individual.

How Long Should a Retirement Plan Last?

Brett opened with a common habit. Many people plan to age 78, the figure often quoted for life expectancy in the United States. Jordan said that number hides a lot. Averages include people with very different health and work histories. Someone with a steady job, good medical care, and healthy habits may live much longer, and he noted that married couples tend to live longer too.

His advice is to build a plan around more than one version of yourself. Take care of the person you are at 55, he said, and ask what the person at 80 looks like. Jordan calls this modeling. The goal is to test your plan against a long life while you still have time to adjust it.

Jordan also said retirees will lean less on government programs than earlier generations did. When he was young, most people had a pension, and Social Security was an add-on. He believes that mix is fading, and he pointed to an aging population as one reason Social Security faces pressure, with fewer workers paying in for each retiree. His takeaway: more retirees will need to take responsibility for funding a longer and more expensive retirement. For current Social Security figures, check the latest annual report from the program's trustees rather than relying on a number quoted in conversation.

What Retirement Takes Away

Jordan said retirement planning often skips what people give up when the paycheck stops. He named four things: routine, identity, relationships, and power. Retirement is often pictured as a series of beach scenes, he said, and the daily experience can look different.

He pointed to a book on the topic, How to Retire and Not Die by Gary Sirak. According to Jordan, the author spent years in financial services and noticed that some of his most successful clients had a hard time after they retired.

Jordan built his own approach around four pillars of a meaningful life: belonging, purpose, storytelling, and transcendence. Transcendence is his word for what you do to help someone else. He said fraternal organizations do this well because they give members a group to belong to, a reason to show up, and charitable work to share.

The stakes may be higher than they look. The U.S. Surgeon General's 2023 advisory, Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation, associates weak social connection with a greater risk of heart disease, dementia, depression, and early death. Jordan referred to the Surgeon General on isolation, and Brett shared a similar article he had read that week.

Couples and Retirement Spending

Brett described something he sees often: one partner is terrified of running out of money, and the other wants to enjoy retirement. Getting on the same page matters, he said. Jordan agreed it is a big deal. After a lifetime of saving, he said, many people need to be given permission to spend.

Jordan listed questions couples can ask before retirement starts. Make sure the surviving spouse is covered since one of you will go first. Talk about charitable giving, which he said starts at home. Decide what legacy you want to leave your children, or if you plan to spend what you have. He was clear he was not judging the answers. He only wanted the conversation to happen.

He also had a tip about language. Asking someone about risk tolerance can leave them feeling they should know a term they have not heard. Jordan prefers to ask how something feels since feelings drive financial choices. He added that people tend to want less risk as they age.

A Baseline of Retirement Income

Jordan said he likes annuities because of what they are built to do. He called an annuity "upside down life insurance." Life insurance protects people who die too soon, and annuities are designed for people who live a long time. Some annuities may offer income that continues for life, subject to contract terms, fees, and the claims-paying ability of the issuing insurance company.

He described that income as a baseline, similar to an old paycheck, and he was clear about its limits. "You wouldn't put all your money into an annuity product," he said. He credited Tom Hegna, a past Safe Money Radio guest, for the phrase "paychecks and playchecks."

Brett framed the idea around must-pay expenses such as a mortgage or rent. Income set aside for those bills may take some pressure off, he said, and Jordan agreed. Jordan also compared planning around a withdrawal rate that carries a chance of running short to boarding a plane with a real chance of not landing. A big market drop early in retirement can hurt a portfolio, he said, and an average result does not help the person it happens to.

Annuities come with trade-offs, including fees, surrender charges, and limits on access to your money. Products and features vary by state and carrier, and an annuity may not be suitable for everyone.

Why People Still Need People

Jordan believes financial choices are emotional. He said research recognized with a Nobel Prize found that people do not decide rationally about money. When a wrong decision carries a high price, he said, people want to talk to another human being. AI can help with efficiency, he added, though it cannot make a person more authentic.

He understands why some people feel reluctant to meet with a licensed agent. When he started in the 1970s, agents sold products against one another. The industry then moved toward planning, and now it is moving toward relationships. His advice is to find someone you can trust.

The Story Behind the Book

Jordan shared why this work matters to him. His father died in a car accident in 1954, shortly after canceling a $100,000 life insurance policy because he was buying an apartment building. His mother, who had no college degree, went to work as a secretary, and the family's circumstances changed sharply. Brett recalled Jordan making the point that someone should have asked what would happen to the family if the policy was canceled. The story stayed with Brett, and it is a reminder to think about the people who depend on your income.

FAQ

How long should I plan for my retirement to last?

Joseph Jordan says longer than the averages suggest. He recommends testing your plan against a long life, including the person you will be at 80, and talking with a professional you trust.

What does retirement take away?

Jordan names routine, identity, relationships, and power. He suggests planning for belonging, purpose, storytelling, and helping others.

How can couples get on the same page about retirement spending?

Start early. Talk about how each partner feels about spending, who is covered if one passes first, charitable giving, and the legacy you want to leave.

What role can an annuity play in retirement income?

Some annuities may offer income that continues for life, which some retirees use to cover must-pay expenses. They come with trade-offs and may not suit everyone, so the details matter.

Where To Start

Want to take the next step? Run your own numbers with the free WIYN calculator at brettblake.annuity.com, which takes about three minutes. Ready to talk it through? Book a Retirement Clarity Session with Brett. No obligation, no pressure. Brett is a licensed insurance agent and may recommend an annuity if it fits.

Most of us spent 40 years learning how to fill the bucket. Few were taught how to turn on the tap, or what to do with the years the tap pays for.

Worry Less. Live Longer.

About the host

Brett A. Blake hosts Safe Money Radio and is the CEO of Annuity.com. He is a Harvard MBA who will tell you the degree taught him almost nothing about retirement income. Before Annuity.com, he built a nearly $1B business, starting near $50M. Brett lives in Gilbert, Arizona with his wife Erin. He is a licensed insurance agent, not a CPA or tax attorney.

About the guest

Joseph Jordan is a behavioral finance expert, speaker, and author of Living a Life of Significance. He ran insurance sales at Paine Webber, served as a senior vice president at MetLife, and was a founder of the Insured Retirement Institute. He has presented to more than 400,000 financial professionals and received the 2023 John Newton Russell Memorial Award from NAIFA. He is not a CPA or tax attorney.

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GUEST DISCLOSURE: Joseph Jordan is a podcast guest appearing in his individual professional capacity. The views he shares are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Safe Money Radio, Brett A. Blake, or Annuity.com, Inc. Mentions of insurance and annuity products in this article are educational and are not a recommendation of a specific product.